Introduction
This debate is between me and An Atheist....
throughout this debate....
You will witness that how when Emily is DEBUNKED at one subject...
She rapidly changes the subject....
As Usual...
My Responses are in RED and Hers in Black
The Debate
From: Emily
Subject: mohammed married a little girl...
Message: I just read your response to the "why do muslims marry prepubescent girls" question, and I think it was pretty ****** up. Just because an 8 or nine year old gets her period, does NOT make her a woman, because her body is NOT capable of carrying a baby. Read up on your biology, just because a girl has started releasing eggs and her body is preparing for a potential pregnancy, does NOT mean that she is ready to. Think about how large a pregnant woman's belly gets. Now think about how small a nine year old girl is. If you thought that the organ displacement that occurs in a normal woman's pregnancy is bad, think about the shifting that would occur in the tiny body of a nine year old. You have heard about pregnant women getting short of breath, yes? It's because their uterus has expanded so much that it is compressing their lungs, as well as their entire pleural cavity, abdominal cavity, and thoracic cavity. No matter how old or physically fit a woman is, a pregnancy is ALWAYS taking a risk. That risk increases in teenage pregnancies---so just imagine how large the risk is to a tiny girl.
In addition, just because a little girl has gotten her period, does NOT mean that she is ready to have a large penis violently shoved inside of her. I had a pelvic exam at the age of 13 because I had a period that lasted three years straight, and I screamed bloody murder (DESPITE the relaxant drug that they gave me). Now just think about a little girl pushing out a baby. Sickening.
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
Well...first of all,can u give me the link of the question??
Did I answer in that question??
U may have used "some" abusive words but I swear "By Allah,I will not use any"
1.Marry(pbuh) got married when she was 12 years old with 90 year old Joseph(Catholic sources)
2.Moses(pbuh) and his companions raped virgin girls as young as 3(Jewish Talmuds)
I can give u a link in which a 9 year old girl gave birth to a baby in Thailand!!(lets see if u ask for one)
If Ayesha(pbuh) The Mother of Believers was oppressed in any kind,she would have not become one of the greatest woman of her time..
1.She learned more than 30,000 poetry.
2.She narrated more than 2,000 Hadiths
3.She took part in many Ghazwas(war fought in the presence of Muhammad p.b.u.h)
4.Great companions of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) used to learn from her....
So one thing is crystal clear...
She was not oppressed...
People back then used to marry girls as young as her age and u won't be able to give me a single narration in which enemies of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) teased her her for marrying a young girl...
In fact her father Abu Bakr(pbuh) encouraged this marriage..!
including her mother too.......
So if they did not have a problem...
Then why do u have a problem??
From: Emily
Subject: Re: mohammed married a little girl...
Message: 12 year old Mary married 90 year old Joseph---that's ****** up.
Moses and his followers raped girls as young as three---INCREDIBLY ****** up! Moses was a giant douche.
So, are you basically saying that you think it's ok for young girls to basically be raped? Even if a girl has had her first period it does not mean that she is ready to have sex. ESPECIALLY if she is only nine or ten when she gets her period. I looked on google to try to locate the story of the girl in Thailand, and the first thing that popped up was about a nine year old girl in brazil who gave birth. To quote the article:
"in some cultures it's natural for girls to have sexual relations after their first menstruation, but now we have to study if that was the case here, if their culture permits this," Santos said."
Here in civilized countries such as the USA, we don't treat girls like they are breeding machines, therefore we discourage sex until they are at least 16, due to the emotional and physical harm that comes with having sex too early. Even for girls who don't start their period until age 13 or 14, most of them don't want anything to do with sex, the idea simply terrifies them.
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
I never said it is okay to rape girls as young as 3..........
I just quoted Christian and Jewish sources to tell how hypocrite u r.......
I don't see u bashing Christianity and Judaism.......!!
Here is a link which will prove that a 9 year old girl gave birth........
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,202601,00.html
here is a picture...
http://answering-christianity.com/thai_girl.htm
and a 5 year old girl also gives birth to a child!!
http://scienceroll.com/2006/12/09/the-youngest-mother-ever/
so as we can see girls as young as 9 can give birth to a child........
i will have to use a second IM to answer all of it once,
America treats women fairly??
OR
Do they liberate women??
If u take a look at the F.B.I statistics....
It is estimated that in just one day.......
27,219 women are raped.......
Every single day........!!
so this is clearly refuted that "U" people liberate women..........
Findings by the U.S. Surgeon General C. Everette Koop revealed that domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women between ages 15 to 44, more common than automobile accidents, muggings and rapes combined.
Weapons are used in 30 percent of domestic violence incidents. (P. Claus & M. Ranel, "Special Report: Family Violence," Bureau of Justice Statistics, undated)
15 to 25 percent of pregnant women are battered. (Evan Stark & Anne Flitcraft, 1992.)
i will reply about my mother Ayesha(R.A) and again silence u inshallah!!
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
A 12-year old Christian girl getting married in Romania
http://answering-christianity.com/gypsy_girl.htm
If you take the time to study a little bit about the history of the tribes in South America, Middle East, Africa, India and the far eastern Oriental countries 1400 years ago, you would find that many tribes even until today (as shown in the Thai girl's and the 12-year old Romanian girl links above) allow the marriage of females at a very young age.
Do you think it is fair for you to come today and attack our beloved Prophet and call him a child molester when nobody 1400 years ago from his tribe had objected to his marriage? Not even the Pagans of Mecca, nor the Jews and Christians of Medina ever objected to it or used it as a point against Islam as anti-Islamic do today.
We all need to understand the culture that we are talking about. Life in the Middle East is a very simple one. It is a lot simpler than what our brain can imagine, because the simplest to us here in America may be a very difficult or complicated thing to them in the Middle East especially for those folks who live in tribes in the rural areas where they don't have TV, electricity, or any electrical equipment. They live on natural water and survive on what they have available from fruits, vegetables and animals as food.
Parents look at the girl's physical appearance when they prepare her for marriage. They don't care about her age. She could be 9 or 13,
From: Emily
Subject: Re: A Strong Refutation to a Weak Argument..........
Message: I think that Christianity and Judaism are ****** up too, but in countries where the majority of the population is Christian (ex: USA, UK, most of Europe), the marriage and rape of nine year old girls is not an accepted practice, as it still is in many Muslim nations. Everyone was barbaric in the times of Muhammad and Moses, but the disturbing thing is that even today many Muslim countries continue to practice these traditions.
As sad as those statistics of battery and rape are in America, the government takes action in order to protect the victims, unlike in Muslim countries, where the victims of rape are blamed and often "honor killed" by members of their families.
And women in America do have freedoms that women in the middle east do not have. We aren't forced to wear a hijab, we are allowed to drive, we are allowed to go out in public, we are allowed to have careers, we have reproductive freedoms (access to birth control, abortion, etc), we aren't forced to drop what we're doing to satisfy the sexual needs or our husbands, we have the right to say "NO". As sick as the statistics of crime against women are in America, it is not socially acceptable, whereas in Muslim countries, the government and public is in favor of the oppressor.
And just because a nine year old is capable of having a child, it is not a good practice, due to the high possibility of complications and/or death.
From: Emily
Subject: Re: 2nd Reply
Message: My teacher, who is an RN, said that a woman's body does not finish developing until her early 20s, in which case the pregnancy of a nine year old carries very, very severe risks.
Do you think that nine year olds getting married and having kids is acceptable nowadays? What about the wishes of the child? Just because a child has gotten her period, whether she be 9 or 13, does not mean that she is ready to have a large object shoved inside of her, and have another even larger object come out. If an 18 year old woman experiences pain upon losing her virginity, imagine how much agony a nine year old would be in, especially considering how the male would most likely be much older and much larger.
Females go through enough pain upon getting their periods, why force more pain upon them? The pain of having something forced into your vagina is an agonizing and traumatizing experience.
Just so you know, I'm not trying to bash Muslims, because other third world countries are just as ****** up, whether they be in South America, Saudia Arabia, or Europe.
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
You have started repeating your points which i have refuted with ample proofs...........
Refuting your points (again) would be repeating my messages.....
Your both messages were "junks" and there is nothing to refute there.....
1.I have provided Crystal clear proofs that Ayesha(R.A) was not an oppressed woman....there was no refutation from your side.....
2.I have provided irrefutable proofs that a woman can give birth to a child as young as 5 years old,......there was no refutation from your side...
3.I have provided proofs that marriages 1500 years ago were common with 9 or 10 years old....There was again no refutation from your side...
4.I have provided proofs that America does not liberate women....it oppresses them,you r sex machine there.... you r a sex machine in the west!!but not in Islam.....there was again no satisfying refutation from your side!!
you just keep saying "My teacher says this" "My teacher says that"........
What is your real age by the way??
R u 13??
have i been debating with a 13 year old??
you sound like one...
You r an Atheist right??
its disappointing how u have started to repeat your points.....
there is no resistance from you side.........
U say u have a right to say no....
well YES...!!
when a girl is getting raped in America every single minute,.......she at least says NO!!!
and u r right........
u have a right to kill your child in west when it is not born yet....
it is a sad freedom...
but its yours...
""Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
U have started to change the subject.......
and opening the subject of Hijab in Islam.........
I will refute that Inshallah......
but first U would have to accept your defeat in the topic we r talking about.......
I provided irrefutable proof that marrying a 9 year old at that time was fine.......
If no....
Then I would have to challengeU........
Lets see if u accept it.......
"I challenge U to give me a single authentic Islamic narration in which Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is teased and abused by his enemies at that time"
it is a simple challenge......
women r respected in Islam
Sahih Muslims Book 032, Number 6180:
Abu Huraira reported that a person came to Allah, 's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Who among the people is most deserving of a fine treatment from my hand? He said: Your mother. He again said: Then who (is the next one)? He said: Again it is your mother (who deserves the best treatment from you). He said: Then who (is the next one)? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Again, it is your mother. He (again) said: Then who? Thereupon he said: Then it is your father. In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Qutalba, there is no mention of the word" the people".
You have failed to realize his greatness.....
U thought that by saying Muhammad(pbuh) married 9 yea old would make my faith tremble.......
Absolutely not!!
My faith has increased...
I love my dear Prophet more than ever...
and My Mother Ayesha(R.A) too.....
From: Emily
Subject: Re: Fighting a lost war,eh??
Message: 1. Fine, Ayesha grew up to be a great woman, but I highly doubt that she enjoyed having her virginity taken at age 9 by a much older man.
2. For your information, I had heard the story of the five year old girl who had a baby before you told me. Therefore, you did not prove to me that a girl that young can carry a child to term (as incredibly rare as it is). However, that does NOT change the fact that a five year old girl who becomes pregnant (which is probably about one in 100,000,000) is taking an incredible gamble with her life. As I MENTIONED BEFORE but you refused to acknowledge:
"The risks for the teen mom are great as well. Pregnancy and birth can put a tremendous strain on a teenager's body. If bone structure is not fully developed, she takes the risk of injuring her spine and pelvic bones, altering her life forever. It is also well known that the irresponsible behaviors some teens exhibit may put them at risk for sexually transmitted diseases. These diseases can be easily spread to an unborn baby. If untreated, disasterous consequences can occur."---http://www.essortment.com/all/teenpregnancyh_ryot.htm
Of course, that is talking about teenage mothers, so imagine the risks to a 5 or 9 year old. They would be tremendously greater!
Let me ask you a question, suppose a little 5 year old girl began menstruating. Do you think that she should immediately be married off and essentially raped by her "husband", simply because she has started her period?
continued...
From: Emily
Subject: Re: Fighting a lost war,eh??
Message: 3. Yes, I have not denied that marriages of 9 and 10 year olds was common in the Dark Ages. But that's because people were stupid back then. It doesn't make it RIGHT.
4. Where is your proof that America does not liberate women? Actually, I did prove that America DOES liberate women. I can't retrieve the message, so I'll just repeat it right here. America allows women to drive, we are allowed to show our hair (GOD FORBID we should show our hair), we are allowed out in public, we are allowed to go to school, we have access to birth control, it is against the law to beat women, we are allowed to work for a living, we are allowed to say no to sex, etc. We are NOT treated as sex machines, because we actually have the right to say NO to sex. So tell me, how does Islam liberate women?
And I keep saying "my teacher says" (even though I've only said it twice), because my teacher is a nurse and she knows this stuff.
I am 17 years old. I am an athiest. The only reason why I am repeating my points is because I cannot get my points through your thick head. At least raping children in America is ILLEGAL, unlike in the middle east where it is an accepted practice!
The right to abortion is important. You may treat women like baby machines in the middle east, but in America we give women the choice.
From: Emily
Subject: Re: the 2nd message
Message: The subject has not been changed at all. The hijab ties into what we were talking about because it symbolizes the oppression of females in the middle east. No, I will not accept defeat, because, although it is true that the marriage of young girls was common in the Dark Ages, myself and the rest of the CIVILIZED WORLD condemn it as a sick, horrible practice. In fact, the truthfulness of whether or not young girls were married off long ago is not in question. It is whether or not it is acceptable. So there is no need for your "irrefutable proof".
As for your little "challenge", why would I give a **** whether or not Muhammad was teased by his enemies? What does that have to do with the topic at hand? Next time try to come up with a meaningful challenge, rather than pulling one out of your ***.
And no, women are not respected in Islam. In Islam, a husband is allowed to hit his wife. I'm pretty sure that in Christianity a husband is granted the same thing, but most Christians live in civilized countries where the government bans spousal abuse.
Regarding the passage that you sent me, it mentions that his mother is not to be hit, but what about his wife? It never mentions that he must be kind to his wife.
And no, I was not trying to diminish your faith. I couldn't give a flying **** about your faith or your "dear prophet".
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
Thank you for not accepting the challenge.........
the war is over.......
and it has been won by D@!Z.........
It does not have to do anything with the topic.....??
This proves that marriages at that time period were fine with 9 or 10 year old girls........
this proves that I was right.........
This was the whole topic!!
I did not say that marriages in this era with a 9 year old is fine.......
but that was then...this is now........
U accepted that marriages were okay in that era with a 9 year old!!
u said that yourself!!!
I figured u were an Atheist because the language u used is not used by a true Christian or a Jew........
only an Atheist uses that foul language.......
U r again trying to change the subject.......
well don't.........
Wife beating and Hijaab are two different topics.........
In the next message.......
I will prove that America does not liberate women whatsoever...........
Here is another hadith of the Prophet Muhammad:
"Fear Allah in respect of women." And: "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives." And: "A Muslim must not hate his wife, and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, let him be pleased with one that is good." And:"The more civil and kind a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect in faith he is."
I am not going to refute your silly points about u controlling the birth and of killing the child and driving and having sex and incest....
U have freedom........
Bad Freedom.....
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
I have already proved how women r treated in America.......
2,719 rapes in just one day........
If thats liberation........
then fine..........
U said something that American government gives punishment to those who had committed rape and not like Muslims' honor killing........
if that correct........
then look at the following line
"The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials."
my question to u.......
if American police gives them protection...
then why don't 74% raped women report it to the police??
According to the U.S. Department of Justice: (All statistics are taken from: Violenceagainst Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)
"One of every four rapes take place in a public area or in a parking garage."
In public??
why??
American people do not save her??
its a shame...
"31% of female victims reported that the offender was a stranger."
wow........
so a man walks into the grocery or in a shop and rapes.......
"75% of female rape victims require medical care after the attack."
thats again a shame.............
"In 29% of rapes, the offender used a weapon."
again........
whats going on there??
"At least 45% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs."
so drugs and alcohol is common...
looking at above facts...
U be the judge..
From: EmilySubject: Re: America does not liberate womenMessage: The only reason why you hear about so many rapes in America is because our government actually ACKNOWLEDGES that many men force sex upon women, unlike this:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4295111.stm"The girl was sentenced to 100 lashes because her accusations of rape and kidnap could have landed her partners a death penalty, a Tehran judge said."Here in America, we do not punish the victims.From the same article: "International concerns continue to be raised about women's rights in Iran. In December the UN General Assembly voted to censure Iran for human rights violations, including discrimination against women and girls."And what about these honor killings:http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm"Every year, hundreds of women and girls are murdered in the Middle East by male family members. The honor killing-the execution of a female family member for perceived misuse of her sexuality-is a thorny social and political issue."And what about this sicking story:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7096814.stmAs I mentioned before, Americans do NOT punish the victims. Despite how many rapes occur in America, we feel sympathy for the victim, instead of trying to hurt them any more.America gives women rights because, although rape happens a lot here, it is unacceptable in the eyes of most citizens and the government, unlike in the middle east, where the poor victim is blamed. And you did not refute my other comments on how the US liberates women
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
It is quite funny when I ask U to refute ME........
but then your message comes and the topic has been entirely changed and then U ask to refute ME.........
Bu i will Inshallah refute u maybe this time it will take more than 2 messages.......
I am not responsible for someone's own sins.......
here is a Hadith..........
Ibn `Abbas (RAA) said:
"The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: `Whoever had a daughter born to him, and he did not bury her alive or humiliate her, and he did not prefer his son over her, Allah (SWT) will admit him to Paradise because of her."
Reported by al-Hakim in al-Mustadrak 4/177, Kitab al-birr wa'l-silah. He said: its isnad is sahih.
So your question regarding Honor killing has been refuted.....
In this link.......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4295111.stm
it says.....
" It said she had sex of her own free will, the official Iran Daily newspaper reported."
so there was no rape.....
she committed fornication and the punishment of fornication in Islam is this:
Allah says in surah Al Nur ch.24
2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,--flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
so this part is also refuted.....
it is again funny how u think u "got" me...
i did not refute u??
R u running away from the truth?
Why lie?
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
I refuted u saying that u have bad freedom.,,........
U can commit fornication,adultery,rape,incest etc......
Most Americans Have Had Premarital Sex
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Dec19/0,4670,PremaritalSex,00.html
Your freedom is to dance naked in the clubs.......
while the freedom of women in Islam is live modestly.....
u have a clear misconception about punishment of rape in Islam...
Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:
"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.
She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Apostle of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.
He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.
He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4366)"
continued.......
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
as u would have seen in the previous message that the girl who was raped was forgiven and nothing was happened to her while the raper was STONED TO DEATH........
this will remove your misconception about the punishment of rape in Islam is to punish the woman also....
U said u could drive in the west and we both know that a woman cannot drive in Saudi Arabia.....
but she can be a pilot of an passenger plane........
i disagree with them too.......
because at the time of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).......
Ayeha(pbuh) used to ride horse.......
if Ayesha(pbuh) can ride horse at that time then why can't a woman of this age drive??
i disagree with them as u do....
she should drive...
i still have some space so i will refute your "Hijaab point"....
In Bible...
it is written that if a woman does not wear a veil.....
her hair(on head) should be cut off........
so they r more strict than Muslims.......
1.8 billion Muslims and 2 billion Christians.......
Approximately 4 billion people in the world agree on wearing a veil.....
the disagreements of bunch of Atheists does not count...
Jews also believe in veil...
u can do the math yourself......
Quran does not allow to beat your wife and neither did Prophet beat his wives.....
I used 3 messages this time because u r not refuting my points and throwing arguments at me....
I appreciate your time for reading it...
u r a little different from other Atheists....
And this "difference" is good.....
From: EmilySubject: Re: America does not liberate womenMessage: Quoting a passage from the Quran is not an acceptable rebuttal to the very real issue of honor killings. You did not address the facts, you simply provided me with a passage that condemned honor killings. However, there is still an epidemic of honor killings going on in Muslim countries. Therefore, my question regarding honor killing has NOT been refuted.You seemed to miss the part of the article where the girl claimed that she was raped. Sadly, middle easterners do not believe in the concept of rape, because women are not allowed to say "no." They simply overlooked what she said, in fear that the males involved would have a more severe punishment.And I do not think I "got" you. You're incredibly delusion
From: EmilySubject: Re: 2nd mesageMessage: In America, as long as both parties are over the age of 16 and consenting, premarital sex is not a crime. In fact, if two people are considering marriage, having sex may actually be a good thing, because sex is a large part of marriage, and if the sex turns out to be really bad, they might reconsider marriage.As for your statement "your freedom is to dance naked in the clubs", women are not forced into doing that. It is a choice. However, in many parts of the middle east, wearing a hijab is not a choice; women and girls are forced to wear it, thus symbolizing oppression. In America, SOME women choose to dance in clubs, while MOST choose to live a more modest life. It's all a matter of choice, which women in muslim countries do not have."He (the Prophet) said to the woman: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death."Why would Allah have needed to forgive the woman in the first place? She committed no crime. A subtle hint at how Islam (although the woman was forgiven, and the perpetrator stoned to death) blames the victim. From: EmilySubject: Re: part of 2nd messageMessage: "as u would have seen in the previous message that the girl who was raped was forgiven and nothing was happened to her while the raper was STONED TO DEATH........"As I said in the previous message, why would the girl have even needed to be forgiven? She did nothing wrong. Although it is good that they did not harm her, and instead killed the rapist, there is still no reason why she would have even had to worry about Allah forgiving her.Regarding the hijab, there are 2 billion christians in the world---and I have never seen ONE SINGLE christian wearing a veil. However, nearly all of the muslim women I have seen (and trust me, I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts, I've seen a lot) are wearing a head scarf. Do you know the reason for this? Because although many Christians take their religion seriously, none of them pay any attention to the parts that serve only to diminish women's rights. Christians UNDERSTAND that the bible was written back in the dark ages, and that many of their practices were barbaric, and therefore many parts of it are NOT RELEVANT TODAY. THAT is why you don't see christian women wearing veils.And what the **** are you talking about when you say I'm not refuting your points? I provided you with solid evidence that women are liberated in America (being able to drive, go outside, etc).And how the **** am I different from other athiests? "Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
I said that I AM not responsible for anyone's deeds.........
I clearly refuted by giving single Hadith how the treatment of women should be in the eyes of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)..........
If a Muslim does not obey Muhammad(pbuh).........
then he will be severely punished in the afterlife........
about the Hadith we discussed regarding rape........
it was a tradition of Arabs of Muhammad(pbuh) that they used to rape women and then punish her........
Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) opposed them and said that she is forgiven........
this is one rebuttal.....
"forgiven" can be taken as her all sins r forgiven because of her pains when he raped her......
U r different from other Atheists........
because u take time to study Islam.........
don't take that in a bad sense and use foul words......
U have not seen any Christian woman wearing veil??
what about nuns??
in the church??
"However, nearly all of the muslim women I have seen are wearing a head scarf.".............
this proves that Muslim woman r not forced to wear Hijab in the west and they wear it to protect their modesty.........
I don't talk....
the statistics talk that women in America r not liberated...........
those statistics were taken from F.B.I and not Islamic sources unlike some people quoting from Non Muslim sources and abusing Islam........
Middle easterners do not believe in concept of rape??
visit middle east and see it yourself how kindly women r treated.....
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
I have refuted every point in just one message.....
I have some space which i will use it to demonstrate how women r treated in Islam........
Here is another lovely saying of the blessed and final prophet:
Mu'awiyah, the son of Jahimah, reported that Jahimah came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said,
" Messenger of Allah! I want to join the fighting (in the path of Allah) and I have come to seek your advice." He said, "Then remain in your mother's service, because Paradise is under her feet."
Saheeh Bukhari
Volume 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 043.
Narrated By 'Aisha : (That she said), "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah's Cause?" He said, "The best Jihad (for women) is Hajj-Mabrur (i.e. Hajj which is done according to the Prophet's tradition and is accepted by Allah)."
A warning for men.
Jabir (R.A)narrates that the Prophet (p.b.u.h) also gave these instructions in his sermon during the Farewell Pilgrimage. “Fear Allah regarding women; for you have taken them (in marriage) with the trust of Allah. (Mishtat)
The Holy Quran says:
"The women have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable." [Qur'an 2:228]
Holy Quran 004.019 : O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness,
there r thousands of verses and Hadiths out of them....
these were short so i used it
From: EmilySubject: Re: America does not liberate womenMessage: Sure, nuns wear veils, but that is because they are members of an organization. The lack of seeing veils in public indicates that most nuns do not wear them in public. And I have only been inside a church several times in my life, but in the ones that I have been in, not one single woman was wearing a veil. And the churches that I have been into are Southern Baptist. Southern Baptists are super religious and crazy, so the fact that they do not wear veils proves that modern Christians do not heed the messages of the bible that serve only to oppress women.You keep bringing up the rape statistics in an effort to prove that women in America are not liberated. Yet you continue to EVADE responding to my other points---about women here being allowed to work, drive, go to school, wear what we want, have CHOICE.Sadly, I cannot get reputable government sources (such as the FBI in America) from Muslim countries, because they are not civilized enough to HAVE such sources. And even if they did, they would never address rape, because as I said, women in the middle east do not have the right to say no, therefore they do not believe in the concept of rape.Also, you bring up those statistics, yet fail to realize that there are 301,139,947 people in America. That's quite a lot, therefore the number (but probably not the percentage) of rapes is going to be higher.So, how do you explain this story:http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=738_1197404019
From: Emily
Subject: Re: 2nd message
Message: Alright, since you fail to refute my points on how women in America ARE liberated, I will make this ENTIRE message about them, provided in list form. Good luck explaining how this list proves that women are oppressed in America.
women in America:
-can drive
-are educated
-can have a career
-can show our hair
-can wear whatever clothes we want
-can go out of our houses
-do not have to cover ourselves from head to toe
-have the right to say "no"
-have the right to birth control
-have the right to safe, legal abortions
-can be in the armed forces
-can get help in cases of spousal abuse
-are not persecuted for crimes against us, such as rape, abuse, etc.
-have the right to speak our minds/argue with men
-are not treated as breeding machines (otherwise we would not be granted birth control and abortion)
-are respected as intellectuals
-are allowed to be strong (i.e. female bodybuilders)
-can have the same jobs as men (construction workers, lawyers, surgeons)
-we are allowed to joke about our prophet (this applies to all americans, not just women)
-we have the right to show an amount of skin that is comfortable to us, but also have the right to tell men not to oogle at us (we just want to be comfortable, not treated as sex objects.)
There are many more that I cannot think of at the moment.
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
If Christians do not act on what is written in the Bible.......
Then I am not responsible for their deeds....
America can only "sympathize" over those women who have been raped.....
U can't do anything....
when I say "Muslims" here..
It means Muslim women....
Muslims can drive
Muslims r educated
Muslims can have a career
Muslims can get out of their house
Muslims have the right to say "no"
If West can kill their children when they r not even born yet...
that does not mean this is freedom...its murder...
Muslims can be in armed forces(Ayesha took part in the war of Uhud)
Muslims r not persecuted for crimes they did not do
Muslims have a right to argue
Atheists have no prophet....If monkeys r your prophet...then no comments
Muslim do not dance naked in the night clubs...
They do not "star" in porn movies unlike western women...
Men In Islam do not mock women like In the west....Women r mocked and abused if they r blonde....
In business,,Muslim women do not present themselves half naked so the customer would by their products...
its a western thing.......
What about the modeling business? Is this the great freedom and respect for women? Where young girls are starving themselves to death to simply stay in shape so they can wear very revealing clothes to please their fashion homosexual designers who produce the clothes. Is this freedom?
As we can see above...
Muslim women have freedom...A Positive freedom...Not naked Freedom.........
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
How desperate can u get??
I am laughing at this moment....
Giving link after link!!
Well In this Message...
I will show u how Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) told his followers to treat with their children....
"Do not pray against yourselves, or against your children, or against your wealth, in case you say such words at a time when Allah (SWT) will answer your prayer."
Sahih Muslim, 18/139, Kitab al-zuhd, bab hadith Jabir al-tawil.
"He is not one of us who does not show compassion to our little ones and recognize the rights of our elders."(Bukhari and Muslim),
Abu Hurayrah (RAA) narrated that the Prophet (PBUH) kissed al-Hasan ibn `Ali. Al-Aqra` ibn Habis said, "I have ten children and I have never kissed any of them." The Prophet (PBUH) said: "He who does not show mercy will not be shown mercy."(Bukhari and Muslim),
"The Prophet (PBUH) said: `There is no-one who has three daughters, or three sisters, and he treats them well, but Allah (SWT) will admit him to Paradise."Reported by Bukhari in al-Adab al-Mufrad,
"The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: `Whoever had a daughter born to him, and he did not bury her alive or humiliate her, and he did not prefer his son over her, Allah (SWT) will admit him to Paradise because of her."
Reported by al-Hakim in al-Mustadrak 4/177, Kitab al-birr wa'l-silah. He said: its isnad is sahih.
As we can see above...
The man who killed his daughter is going to hell according to my dear Prophet...
From: EmilySubject: Re: 2nd messageMessage: So, if Muslim women can drive, are educated, and can leave their houses, then what is this I hear about women in Saudi Arabia not being allowed to leave their homes by their husbands?And yes, the right to abortion is freedom. I am a female, so therefore I would feel oppressed if I didn't have absolute control over my body. A fetus cannot think for itself, therefore if a woman does not want to carry it for nine months, it does not have the right to life. Once the baby is out of the mother's body however, it has the right to life, because it is no longer physically endangering another person.And I wasn't referring to athiests. I was referring to Christians. This really has nothing to do with women, but I figured I'd mention it anyways. What about the rioting in Denmark over the cartoons of muhammad? People got killed...over a cartoon. Sadly, middle easterners are not granted the right to free speech, which includes the right to joke about the prophet. Have you ever seen SouthPark? How they rip Jesus, god, and Christians to shreds? Here in America, we do not face getting killed when we joke about people who do not even exist.Anyway, back to the women's rights. There is an element here that you do not understand. When you say that western women dance naked in clubs and star in porn movies, you fail to understand that they CHOOSE to do that. They are not forced to, it's all about CHOICE.And regarding blonde women, at least we're allowed to SHOW OUR HAIR! From: Emily
Subject: Re: 2nd message
Message: I'm desperate for giving you link after link, yet you are giving me quote after quote...hypocrite much? Especially since pretty much this entire message consisted of quotes...
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
I am Hypocrite??
Am I the one who is giving links and trying to prove that what an individual does is the sin of all Muslims??
Surely...U must understand who is the hypocrite here........
I can give u a 100 links but yet in this conversation...As far a I can remember....Not one link has been thrown at u by me...I could have given u a link in which yesterday...A Britisher killed his 9 month old daughter...But i didn't....Do u know why??
Because there r black sheep in every community....
Regarding the freedom...
YES....U have freedom....
Thats what u wanted to hear from me....
And Muslim women don't have the freedom as U people have....
But....
there is a price to pay for that freedom...
Even as I talk....
Women in America are getting raped.....
If thats thats the price u give for freedom...
then We don't want any freedom in which women r getting raped in public every single day....
Nudity is healthy??
Wow...!!
No comments on that one....
Regarding the cartoons,,,
I agree with u....
People should not get violent...
Saheeh Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."
In the next message...
I will Inshallah refute your absurd points....
U gotta know that....
U r not an opponent i thought u would...
Its easy to refute u...
Sometimes i get bored reading you IMs....
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
"Here in America, we do not face getting killed when we joke about people who do not even exist."
U see how u abuse Christians' beliefs??
Abuse their God and our dear Prophet??
And u do not killed for telling the truth either,right??
I can give u a list of hundreds of journalists who have been arrested only because they wanted to tell the truth about what America is doing....
Its a pity how u think u have freedom and yet...u r servants of Jews and Federal Reserve....
I don't want to drag politics in our conversation so i won't continue...........
Regarding knowledge and education
Prophet Muhammad (P) said, "Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every Muslim.'' (Narrated in Al-Bayhaqi and Ibn-Majah,
Their Lord responds to them: 'I will not let the deeds of any doer among you go to waste, male or female - you are both the same in that respect... (Qur'an, 3:195)
The conversation is getting boring because u do not know the Quran or have not studied it....
Having a conversation with that person is boring...
And u on the other hand r getting frustrated because your points r refuted by me thoroughly.....
I agree with u...
In middle east...
Women don't have the right to murder their children..
While in the west...
U have that freedom....
It is not my head in which nothing is going rather,,,
Its your head,,,!!!
Sorry sister but the next time you message me...
Get some knowledge of Islam...
And some say "we" r illiterates....
From: Emily
Subject: Re: 2nd message
Message: I don't give a **** about abusing christian's beliefs. My grandparents tried to force so much religious garbage down mine and my sister's throats, that I just cannot deal with the bullshit anymore.
And no, you have not refuted my points thoroughly. You tend to cut and paste passages from the quran that make absolutely no sense to me. It's like reading ******* shakespeare. The bible is just as bad, none of it makes sense.
So, do you believe in abortion at least in cases of rape and/or incest? If not, then that is sad and you have absolutely no respect for the health of women. What if the mother's life is in danger?
And just as you don't want me to message you until I attain knowledge of islam, then I'll just say that you cannot argue with me on abortion, because you are a man (I assume) and therefore will never have any idea what it's like to have an unwanted pregnancy.
From: Emily
Subject: Re: A Small Yet A Big Thing For U
Message: You certainly are blind aren't you? You keep bringing up the prevalence of rape in america, even after I tell you that rape is not unique to america. As I have said before, the reason why america appears to have so many rapes is because 1) America has a population of 301,139,947 people, and 2) the American government acknowledges that rapes happen, unlike in the middle east. You don't seem to be able to get that fact through your head. Therefore, I will repeat it as many times as I need to.
And if you don't believe that nudity is healthy, then there is something wrong with you. Nudity does not automatically mean sexuality. What about when a father bathes his little daughter, or changes her diaper? There's nothing sexual about that, it's natural. So, you didn't answer my question. Are muslim women required to wear blindfolds when they shower so they don't see their own sinful nakedness?
I would appreciate it if you would spell out "you" from now on, instead of saying "U", because it makes you seem very immature.
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
I am blind??
India is the 2nd biggest most populated country in the world yet,,,there r 15,000 rapes in a year,,,,
What about America...??
In just one month....
The rapes of America exceeds the no. of rapes in India......
"Are Muslim women required to wear blindfolds when they shower so they don't see their own sinful nakedness?"
This is a cheap question,,,,
I did not refute it because it does need to be refuted....
Women and men r forbidden to show the nakedness of each other but not there self...
If u think otherwise...
Please give me a verse of Quran which supports ur absurd theory.......
I use U instead of YOU because it saves much space....
And yes...
A recent survey shows that 10% of American population has committed incest...So u guys do need abortion than Muslims in middle east........
I have clearly refuted and i thought it removed the misconception from ur mindless head that A raped woman does not get punished but the raper is stoned to death,,,
I will repeat it many times..........
Changing a baby's diaper is nudity but i was referring to the "other" meaning of nudity...
I quote Quran because I prove that women r liberated and r not treated in the way u think...
But then again...
U have a small brain....
A frustrated brain...
Every single word refuted in one IM...
I don't need another one...
U r presenting childish arguments...
Really...........
From: Emily
Subject: Re: Laughing Out Loud at your arguments...
Message: As I have said about 100 times now, one of the reasons why America has so many rapes is because our government actually acknowledges that rape happens. In the middle east, many women are too afraid to admit they were raped for fear that a) people won't believe them and will just say they had sex of their own free will, and therefore must be punished, and b) they run the risk of being killed for the "honor" of their male family members. In addition, the United States, being a civilized country, has the FBI, which investigates things thoroughly. I'll bet that in reality, there are many more rapes than India claims to have. 15,000 rapes is unrealistic, especially in such an overcrowded country.
You didn't answer my question about rape and abortion. Should a woman be allowed to have an abortion if she is raped? What if her life is in danger? You only answered regarding incest.
And I understand that the quran forbids the punishment of the rape victim, but sadly Muslims commit "honor killings", something that Americans do not do.
As for nudity, a male and female seeing one another naked does not automatically mean that they are thinking dirty thoughts or about to hop in the sack.
And I have a small brain? I'm assuming that, because you're a muslim, you attribute that to my being female. Am I correct in my thinking?
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
Peace Be Upon You"
Oh Yes!!
America acknowledges the rapes...
Maybe for that articular reason...
74% of American women who r raped do not even report to the police....
So the absurd points of honor killing is on u now!!!
And by the way....
Did i not prove that there is no such thing in Islam known as Honor killings??
Off course to have a brain like u...
I have to explain that a million times.....
When a woman goes on a date...
And then if she is raped...
That is not a rape my sister....
Because she already got herself in a position to get raped....
About abortion....
Yeah sister..!!
For American women...
Abortion is a needed....
"As for nudity, a male and female seeing one another naked does not automatically mean that they are thinking dirty thoughts or about to hop in the sack."
Then what thoughts will occur??
Can u tell me??
Will they be thinking of God while they see the nakedness of each other??
U really have a small brain...!!
America is a civilized country??
Wow!!
After what i have "proved".....
America does not stand in the line of civilized countries....
Every single word refuted.......
From: Emily
Subject: Re: Laughing Out Loud at your arguments...
Message: wait wait wait, are you trying to tell me that there is no such thing as date rape? Regardless of whether a woman is on a date or not, unwanted sex is still rape. A woman has the right to say no, no matter what the circumstances. Just because a woman is on a date does not mean that she automatically wants to have sex, therefore she has the right to say "NO". So you basically have the "blame the victim" mentality, don't you? That's pretty sad. Since your "Allah" is so compassionate as to not punish a woman for getting raped, I figured he would forgive a woman no matter what the circumstances. Guess I was wrong.
As for nudity, why can't a woman and man simply be in a room together, naked, doing something as simple as watching TV? Have you ever heard of nudist colonies? They walk around naked 24/7, and think nothing of it because not only is is what they are used to, but because they view it as natural. On that note, having been through puberty does not automatically mean someone is ready to mate. A woman or man could have gone through puberty, but still have the mind of a child, especially if they went through puberty at a young age, such as me. I'm 17, and having sex is still the LAST thing I want.
And yes, America is a civilized country. Yes, we have rape, we have murder, but we do not have suicide bombers blowing up themselves and innocents every five minutes in crowded marketplaces.
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
Again.....
U guys never give me a fight.....
Throwing childish arguments at me is not winning a war little sister.....
Regarding "date rape....
According to your absurd theory.....
A woman living her life modestly according to the rules given in Quran...When she is raped......
And another woman who is immodest and dates,kisses men,live her life like "girls gone wild"...
When she is raped.....
According to u....
There is no difference between these two women.....
Really.....
U r childish...
We(Muslims) avoid seeing each other naked at best.....
Watching Tv naked?
Man!!
As i said earlier...
Childish Arguments....
"Yes, we have rape, we have murder,"
Finally,,,,
U have at least agreed with me....
" but we do not have suicide bombers blowing up themselves and innocents every five minutes in crowded marketplaces."
Again this is the 3rd or 4th challenge which i will "throw" at u....
"Give Me a Single verse in the Holy Quran which says to kill innocent people...Children,Men,women without any justification...."
Since your "Allah" is so compassionate as to not punish a woman for getting raped, I figured he would forgive a woman no matter what the circumstances.
My Creator cannot do injustice,,,
This is very hard to fit in your brain...
But Hey,,!!
I can try.....
But as we all know....
I can predict what your next message is going to be....
And Trust me....
I am not lying....
From: Emily
Subject: Re: Throwing childish Arguments at D@!Z
Message: "U guys never give me a fight..."
Last time I checked, the only person arguing with you was me, so I don't know where you're going with the "U guys".
And I wasn't aware I was fighting a war. Funny.
Regarding date rape, just because a woman goes on a date DOES NOT MEAN SHE WANTS TO HAVE SEX. Just because a woman kisses a man, DOES NOT MEAN SHE IS READY FOR SEX. This is exactly what I'm talking about in reference to how Muslims treat rape. Here in America, we acknowledge a woman's right to say "no", REGARDLESS OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES. I will repeat what I said before because it seems to be going in one ear and out the other, you have the "blame the victim" mentality. You believe that if a woman decides to wear shorts and a t-shirt on a hot day, that she is and slut and is just asking to be raped, and therefore it is HER fault, not the rapists fault.
And yes, I agreed with you that the US has rape and murder, because EVERY country has them.
"'Since your "Allah" is so compassionate as to not punish a woman for getting raped, I figured he would forgive a woman no matter what the circumstances.'
My Creator cannot do injustice,,,
This is very hard to fit in your brain...
But Hey,,!!
I can try.....
But as we all know....
I can predict what your next message is going to be....
And Trust me....
I am not lying...."
That is not an acceptable rebuttal to my statement about Allah and forgiveness, try again.
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
"U guys" means.....
U r not the only one i am debating.....
There r other Atheists too.......
And one is waiting that when i am finished with u...
I will start debating him...
And he promises that he will give me a fight unlike u......
Regarding "Date Rape".....U did not answer my challenge and u did not answer how the 2 women i previously mentioned could be same....
In a Date...
The Women gets herself in a position to be raped unlike those modest women i mentioned,,,,
"'Since your "Allah" is so compassionate as to not punish a woman for getting raped, I figured he would forgive a woman no matter what the circumstances.'
Read the last part.....
There r times when women is also responsible....
That is why I said that my creator is not injustice,,,
Of course u won't understand...
As Allah says "About u" In Holy Quran....
[002:018] They are deaf, dumb and blind. They will not return.
[047:023] Such are the men whom God has cursed for He has made them deaf and blinded their sight.
Thats what your granny would have thought....
This debate is clearly one sided...
Is there any other topic about Islam that u wanna discuss??
If No.
Then I have other things to do than listen to ur childish arguments..
An Atheist sister is accepting Islam and i have to teach her,,,
There is another Atheist who wants to debate with me...
To summarize that,,,
R there any other childish arguments??
If No...
Then i Have to move on to next debate.....
Conclusion
As we can see that whenever she was smoked on one subject...
she changes the subject...
Well....
She ALSO RAN AWAY...
and could not answer my "Challenges"......
Note:
some of the answers r mixed in black and red....
so when the answer greets...
it is me...
