Introduction
Another Successful debate !!!
I praise Allah who guides me everywhere.....
Christian challenged me to a debate,
And asked many questions during the debate and many were interesting for people who really want to learn something
In the middle of the debate,
He disappeared for more than 14(or 11) days,
when he returned,
He used more than 4 messages which was one of the rules of debate and when he violated it,
Sadly the debate had to be over.....
Hopefully the readers will learn something from this debate Inshallah!!
Note:-
Some people messaged me and congratulated on the debate but I want the readers to understand that i am not a debater nor i am a Scholar,
I just post these types of debates so that Muslims can learn something,
Remember,
These Debates are not published to humiliate the other side!!!!
The Debate
From: Christian
Subject: Re: THought of it....
Message: Lol...No, we're not gonna debate till death, but the problem is I'm sure we'll take more than 12 days! So you choose the maximum time....
I think u misunderstood the whole rule of our debate. You will bring up 3 subjects of CHRISTIANITY, and I will bring Islamic.
I choose what I will bring up. You choose whatever you want.
but to use this time, I will start the way you took it - but next subjects should be done properly. Actually, there is NOTHING that bothers me about the Quran.
Debate started>
1st subject by Christian - The Quran.
Can you explain Surrah 9 (Al-Taubah), verse number 5:
"Then when the sacred months have passed, then KILL the Mushrikun wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform Salat, and give Zakat, then leave their way free" (basiclly if they become Muslims).
With all the context and the verse, this verse proves a very violent and cruel nature on how to treat Mushrikun (Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, even Trinitarians!).
Can you please clarify this verse for me?
Thanks.
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
Thank u for being so respectful.....
Let's read the verse Surah Al Tauba ch.9 verse 5:
5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
If u think this verse tells to kill every single Non Muslim from the face of the earth, then with due respect u r wrong......
First, it says "Pagans" and Christians and Jews r not pagans.....
Secondly, There was a peace treaty b/w Muslims of Medina and Mushriks of Makkah,
Ibn al-`Arabi, in his commentary on the Qur’an, writes:
“It is clear from this that the meaning of this verse is to kill the pagans who are waging war against you.” (Ahkam al-Qur’an: 2/456, emphasis added)
What would America do if a country breaks the peace treaty and kill Americans??
This is the similar situation,,,
I say this with confidence,Never and Anti-Islamic website will read the next verse to u bcoz it has the answer to verse 5:
6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
No general of any country will tell his soldiers to escort their enemies to a safe place..
From: Christian
Subject: Re: salaam
Message: Hello brother..thnx for ure response.
But, I have to object to your explaination.
Look at the whole context from verse 1 to 5. Verse 6 does NOT have anything to do with verse 5. Verse 6 is another story.
I do know properly that it is not meant to kill all Non-Muslims. But regardless, no man has the right to kill ANY one, whether from the ahl-ul kitab (ppl of the book) or from the Mushrikun and Kafirun.
That verse DOES not indicate at a time of war. Any sane person realizes that! Look at the whole passage yourself, brother. You will realize that no where does it indicate at the time of war.
I myself invite you to open the hadith. Everythin will be clear through Abu Bakr's words if you look at the Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Vol 9, Hadith no. 59.
The Hadith itself will tell you that you are wrong.
Therefore brother, you are wrong in explaining this verse. Look at it again, and pls respond....
Thanks.
PS: I do not use ANY anti-Islamic site in our debate. My only weapons I have is the Bible, The Quran and the Ahadith, and some Islamic books!
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
Brother, Surah Anfaal (ch.8),Surah At Tawbah(ch.9) are the chapters which was revealed before, during and after the war of Badr and Uhud
U can take a look at all the 6 verses here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/quran/00901.htm
About the verse 6,to summarize, if they wish to have peace, then be peaceful with them and escort them to a safe place from where they can return to their homes....
According to Tafeer Ibn Khateer on verse 6:
Idolators are granted Safe Passage if They seek It...
Allah said to His Prophet, peace be upon him,
(And if anyone of the Mushrikin), whom you were commanded to fight and We allowed you their blood and property,'
(seeks your protection), asked you for safe passage, then accept his request until he hears the Words of Allah, the Qur'an. Recite the Qur'an to him and mention a good part of the religion with which you establish Allah's proof against him,
(and then escort him to where he can be secure) and safe, until he goes back to his land, his home, and area of safety,
About the hadith, please state the Hadith, is it about the Zakat??
Secondly, do u honestly believe that Muslims r commanded to kill every single Non Muslim??
If that was true, why r there 40 million Coptic Christians only in Arabia??
India was ruled by Muslims for more than 400 years...
Why r there 80% Non Muslims in India??
If that was true, not a single Non Muslim would have lived in Middle east, on the contrary, we find millions
From: Christian
Subject: Re: salaam
Message: Yes my friend. Verse 6 talks about taking care of pagans if requested. But from verse 1 to 6 talks about how you abide by the treaty made b/w muslims and pagans (from verse 1-4). But in verse 5 it says on the sacred months to slay them.
Verse 6 - look at it carefully. It says if they then asks for your refuge, allow them so that the WORD OF ALLAH be spoken to them. "Hata yesma'a kallam Allah" - which means so that he may hear God's word.
besides, as I said, the Hadith will prove you wrong itself. Here is what it says:
Narrated Abu Hurairah: When the prophet died and Abu Bakr became his successor and some of the Arabs reverted to disbelief, Umar said "O Abu Bakr! How can you fight these people although Allah's messenger said "I have been ORDERED to fight he people till they say: La illah illa allah. and who ever says that shahada will save his property and his life from me, unless justly, and his account will be for allah?". Abu Bakr said "By Allah! I will fight whoever differentiates between salat and zakat, as zakat is the right to be taken from property. By Allah! If they refused to pay me even a kid they used to pay to Allah's messenger, I would fight them for withholdiing it" Umar said "By Allah! It was nothing, but I noticed that Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the desicion to FIGHT, therefore I realized that his desicion was right". (Sahih Bukhari Vol. 9, Hadith # 59)....
continuation on next mail.....
From: Christian
Subject: Re: CONTINUATION ON PREVIOUS MAIL
Message: continuation.....
Therefore my friend, look at the Hadith' own words, which will automatically prove you wrong. In the Quran which I'm holding, this hadith is even clarly mentioned as a footnote for Verse 5.
So does that sound a just and a 'normal' verse?
And btw brother...No, I do NOT think Muslims are ordered to kill all non-Muslims. I've studied Islam very well, and I know Christians and Jews are regarded 'special' among Non-Muslims.
I clearly know about the peaceful co-existance b/w Christians and Muslims not only in Middle East, but all through out the world! To be truthful, Muslims are even closer to us that Jews. Yes, we came from Jews (we're Jews who believe in Christ). But jews dont believe in Jesus nor that the Gospel ever existed. They deny the very existance of Christiainty too!
But atleast, we have a special place in Islam, and you do believe in the existance of jesus and that there 'was' a Bible!
Although I believe in Zionisim, I believe Muslims are closer to Christians. But there is something you don't know brother...but lets not include any of that in our debate!
Waiting for your reply, brother...
Thanks
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
I have quoted various Tafseers of the Holy Quran, i have proved that this Verse does not say to kill "every" single Non Muslim, if that was true, then there would not have been a single Muhrik in Arabia,
the rule of Islam is simple:
2:190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.
"but do not transgress limits" means in the eyes of various scholars that no killing if women, children, priests, rabbis, trees,Farms (if i had the space, i would have mentioned those Hadiths)....
They were going for a battle, and what do u do when u see a combatant enemy??do u eat pizza with him?:)
U kill him, unlike thousands of Iraqi and Afghani women and children were killed in just few years....
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
U have to ask refuge in order to be saved,
9:6 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
During the battle, if any combatant asks for refuge, don't kill him, escort him to a place of safety,
U said some good things about the relation b/w Muslims & Christians, why is there a good relation b/w us??Aren't we commanded to kill u??
1.Why r Christians alive in Arabia??
2.Why r there 80% Non Muslims in India??
3.Why r Christians & Jews ordered to pay Jizya??Aren't we commanded to kill them???
4.Did u wake this morning knowing that there r 1500 million people in this world who want to kill u??
if thats true, u r in big trouble!!:)
remember the verse i quoted before we started the debate??
5:82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
It seems u agree with the author of Quran that for 1400 years, Christians were closer to Muslims,
Why am i talking to u while i should be killing u??
Even u don't believe that we believe this.
[Quran17:33] "You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred,except in the course of justice"
From: Christian
Subject: Re: the 2nd part
Message: Yes, brother, I understand u gave me some of the Tafaseers. But you don’t understand, I’m repeating this for the 3rd time! I clearly know and fully understand that Islam or that verse specifically does NOT mean to kill all Non-Muslims. Besides the verse 5:82, there are other verses too, like the one where it says if the People of the book believe in one God, do good deeds, believe in the Judgment day, then we’ll get our reward, etc.
But thats not my question brother! Have your quran with you and read Surrah al-Towba!
From personal and obvious observation, Verse 1-4, tells Muslims to respect the Treaty made b/w Muslims and Mushrikun. But when the sacred months have passed (verse 5) Muslims are ordered to slay the MUSHRIKUN (not any non-muslim). Verse 6 says, but IF they ask for your refuge, then grant them refuge so that they may come to Islam and or pay the Jizyah. In another words, here, Muslims are the aggressors and Pagans either have to ask for a refuge and comply with Islamic rules, or die! Because as you clearly said, you have to ask refuge in order to be saved! If you retaliate or refuse to comply with Islamic demands, you meet your fate!!
As I said, that hadith will prove you wrong. That hadith is a footnote for verse 9:5. It talks about how Abu Bakr follows Mohammed’s path. And that hadith was parallel to that verse!
----continued on the next mail----
From: Christian
Subject: Look at previous mail first
Message: ---continuation----
And, let us consider that we agree that this verses were written at the time of Battle. First, isn’t the Quran written by Allah? Allah was NOT in the Battle, its his followers. And neither the Quran was brought down after the battles. And those verses (the Quran as a whole) came to Mohammed BEFORE he starts his prophetic works. So how can you claim that this was written at Battle times? Wouldn’t that contradict the claim the Quran is divine or from God?
Thnx...
PS: Please be reminded that I am NOT saying that verse was meant to kill ALL non-muslims.
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
First,U have a major misconception about the Quran,The Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) in a span of 23 years, not before his prophetic works,and Allah did not write the Quran,Muhammad's(pbuh) follower did,Angel gave the message of Allah to Prophet,since he was illiterate,he would dictate it to his followers,
Secondly, U say i have to read Surah Tawbah brother, i have not slept for 2 months bcoz i am studying these verses,what r u talking about???
Now this is funny because when Muslims want to defense themselves, it is wrong but other people can just bombard and kill thousands of civilians for just a single person, who were those pagans??they were the Mushriks of Makkah,they martyred the 1st Muslim (a woman) Sumiyya(R.a) by plucking her eyes out and killing her by inserting a sword in her private part,even Prophet's own daughter, when she was migrating,some Mushriks caught her and kicked her in the stomach which killed her child.....
U won't mention these things, nobody does,
Muslims had to migrate from Makkah because of these tortures,
“Will you not fight people who broke their covenants and plotted to expel the Messenger and attacked you first?” [9:13]
Don't look at the context,don't look at the verse before and after it,just pick the verse and throw it on a Muslim,
[Math. 10:34]
"Do not think that I have come to make peace on earth? I HAVE NOT COME TO BRING
PEACE, BUT A SWORD.
Can i apply the same theory here???
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
the reason i quoted the Bible because if i can quote u the context,neither can i talk about the verse before and after it,then u have to be fair and accept that this verse was also not a "normal verse"...
Lets not change the subject and talk about Islam here,
“Except for those pagans with whom you have entered into a covenant and who then do not break their covenant at all nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them until the end of their term, for Allah loves the righteous.” [9:4]
They broke the treaty,secondly if they want peace,the verse 6 talks about peace,
It doesn't say they have to accept Islam then only they will be saved, it said to preach Islam,why in Iraq are Christian missionaries entering especially into refugee camps if u think that is wrong???
Let me remind u that u have not answered any of the questions that i asked u,
Christians and Jews pay Jizya,Muslims pay Zakat,whats wrong with that??
Abu Bakr(R.A) fought with those who did not pay Zakat,he did not kill a pagan wherever he saw them,
I have space and i have refuted every single point here,
Muslims never believed there "was" a Bible,We believe that there was a "Gospel Of Jesus"...
We accept him and respect this "Man Of Truth", and no Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe Jesus Christ as a servant Of Allah,
May Allah Guide us All,
Looking forward for your IM
"Salaam"
"Peace"
From: Christian
Subject: Re: the 2nd part
Message: Brother…
One thing, I never said it was right to kill and bombard thousands of civilians. I said earlier, no man has the right to take other man’s life. And I never said if you preach Islam its wrong!
And I never ever quoted that verse out of context! I’m still wondering how can someone say so, and I’ve clearly taken the whole thing from the very first aya till the 6th verse.
And I yes, it the followers who were remaining from the devastating war are the ones who wrote the Quran. I mean Allah gave the ‘revelations’ – the Quran through Gabriel to Mohammed, who dicated them to him, and he memorized them! All this happened in a specific time in a cave, and not in 23 yrs as you claimed! And second, my question was, did Allah dictate it to Mohammed when he was at war? No! The Quran were dictated to Mohammed in a cave. But you claimed numerous times that this was at the time of war!!
And btw brother, you’re trying to justify things by comparing it to the Iraqi victims, etc. and how civilians are bombarded, etc. I never said it was right to kill and bombard thousands of civilians. I said earlier, no man has the right to take other man’s life. Quraish tortured the Muslims, yes. But that is all after the spread of Islam (NOTE: I NEVER say they were right too). And I never said if you preach Islam its wrong! Please, don’t get me wrong! You’re accusing me of things which I never even thought of, and these things will certainly make our debate fruitless!
---to be continued----
From: Christian
Subject: continuation
Message: ----continued here----
And I could easily explain that Bible verse that you gave me. But that would violate the rules bro, please wait till we get this over. And I understand you brought it to show me ‘what I’m doing’. Bro, again, I’m explaining the whole context here, from verse 1-6. Contrary to what you accused me of, I looked at the verse before and after it!
You stated that after verse 4, the Pagans broke the Treaty! Can you bring me proof? Hadith, Quran, etc.
Btw, yes, there is a problem with that hadith. That hadith are the words of Abu Bakr confirming another Hadith , which are the words of Mohammed at Sahih Bukhari Vol.1, Hadith No. 24. The words of the prophet himself are worse – look at it!
But as I told you, I’m not discussing a different subject. On my Quran, verse 5 of Tawba, the hadith was a footnote (reference) to it. You are looking at the hadith from one side!
Therefore my friend, I don’t see anywhere where you have refuted anything at all! On the contrary, it seems that I understand the hadith more than you!! ;).
I hope I have answered your question!
And pls bro, lets try our best to make sure that our debate is a 'friendly learning environment', without plain accusations or bad assumptions, k? Thnx a lot...
looking fw to ure reply....
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
brother if i offended u in any way then i apologize for it...this is the most interesting debate i had so far,
Secondly, U lack the info about Muhammad(pbuh) that a five year old Muslim have,The 1st revelation was received by Muhammad(pbuh) in the cave, after that...it would came anywhere any time......Quran was revealed in the span of 23 years and not in the cave as u claim,he received only 4 verses on the cave for the 1st time,but no sweat, i may not know certain things about Christianity that a kid knows.......
Thirdly, the 4 verse indicates that fight with those who broke the treaty,
fourthly, The 13th verse makes it crystal clear:
“Will you not fight people who broke their covenants and plotted to expel the Messenger and attacked you first?” [9:13]
"Attacked u first"
fifthly, The hadith u mentioned in which Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) said that he will fight the people, he sad that because he knew that once he claim his prophet hood,the battles will start and he will have to protect his people
sixthly, U said nobody has the right to kill,
I agree with u, but what if someone enters your house and wants to kill u??rape your sister and mother??
thats natural that in order to protect yourself, u will have to fight him..
"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors" (2:190)
Seventhly,U have not yet touched any of the questions i asked..
Continued...
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
i have already refuted every single point u raised,
but i will use this IM to further explain:
(K.J.V.) 1 Samuel 15: 3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
I am not quoting from the Bible just to Bash Christianity,i am quoting because Bible too supports that defending yourself and your children ,your wife and your property is prescribed by God....
Non Muslims historians who r true to what they write know this:
"Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him." Diwan Chand Sharma, The Prophets of the East, Calcutta 1935, p. l 22
"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level."
Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33
Don't u see that we r dying in Kashmir,Palestine,Iraq,Afghanistan and we r labeled that we want to kill people??
Why can't u see that??
U r a human,our sisters r raped in American jails,they don't even get a separate bathroom from men....
Our children r being bombarded and we r terrorists??
How is that possible??
From: Christian
Subject: Re: salaam
Message: There is no need to apologize brother, I’m just telling to refrain from certain things that may harm the debate! Thanks anyways for being respectful.
Yes, I admit being mistaken over the revelations of Quran. I did not have prior knowledge of the way it came down. But; you told me Mohammed received verse 5 (or chap.9) at the time of war! But the Quran was supposed to be a word from Allah forever! So what justification does it give for Allah saying “slay Pagans wherever you find them”. There is not! And those revelations were not sent at the time of fightings as you claimed. Let me give you a clearer sight to show you that what you claim is wrong by going deep into it.
Do you know why that part of the Surrah is called Bara’at (declaration of immunity) because in this sura Muhammad claimed Allah released him from blemish and allowed him to break all his treaties with the Pagans. In the verse 3 Muhammad himself is saying that it is he who is breaking the treaties. As we all know, Sura 9 is the last sura that Muhammad wrote. The first part of it is the text of a speech that Ali read on behalf of Muhammad during the pilgrimage after Mecca had fallen to the Muslims. Muhammad was sick and dying so could not come. Ali read this message to all the presents, Muslims and pagans, who were there performing their hajj. This was the last time pagans performed pilgrimage there. In this speech (Bara'at) he told the pagans to convert to Islam or face death.
---continued—
From: Christian
Subject: Re: salaam
Message: He gave them four months of grace to go to their homes and after that war erupts. After these four months, they had to accept Islam and pay the tithes or they would have been killed. (Quran 9:5). Evidently, Muslims were the aggressors. In verse 7 he makes a pledge to spare the lives of those who still had not believed in him for a period of four months but not beyond that. In the verse 8 he justifies this act by blaming the victims and claiming that they would have done the same. But do we have any proof that the pagans ever broke their treaties with Muhammad? None! That’s why I asked you to provide me proof that Pagans broke the treaty!
Now, since you brought up verse 13th, lets continue. verses 11and 12 say that only if the unbelievers convert to Islam they should be taken as brethrens (in faith) but if they decide to exercise freedom of belief they should be fought and restrained. The verse 13 spews more hate and stirs the believers to be resolute in their enmity to the unbelievers and the verse 14 makes it clear that the unbelievers should be fought and punished by the hands of the Muslims. This is the verse that OBL and other terrorists use to justify their crimes against humanity. This verse make clear that the punishment for disbelief is no more left to God but rather it should be meted by the Muslims. There is still more that is to be said, but as a conclusion, Read from verse 1-29 to get the whole story, as I have limited space!
---continued---
From: Christian
Subject: Re: salaam
Message: But in conclusion, the context of the verse is not in any battle. As I said this Surrah was issued when Muhammad had already conquered Mecca. The whole intent of this Surrah is to force Islam on others. Non-Muslims here are not attacking anyone. Muhammad says: if they do not fight back and surrender, don’t kill them. This is like a criminal holding a gun to your head and telling you that he wants to rape your wife; if you protest and fight you would be killed but if you cooperate then your life would be saved.
About the hadith. Where on earth does it say Mohammed said that to protect? It clearly says it with the meaning that “I will go fight until everyone says the Shahada”. Where is the claim that says “I will protect my people because I know people will attack me once I claim my prophet hood”? He clearly says it, “I have been ordered by Allah TO FIGHT”. Its not Mohammed’s vision, its an order from Allah.
6th, in that situation, that is not called aggression. That is self-defense. There is a difference b/w killing a person who tries to rape my mom, or killing a person for what he is (eg. pagan).
---
I will continue for the 4th mail (the maximum limit).
From: Christian
Subject: Re: salaam
Message: 7th, I do not understand! What have I not answered yet? You asked me is there a problem if Muslims pay Zakat and Christians pay Jizyah (ofcourse, u must have meant in Islamic lands). Well, the way it sounds, there seems to be no problem! BUT, that is not what the Hadith meant. Abu Bakr follows Mohammed’s words! He fought those who does not pay Zakat and who doesn’t pray. Is there any Islamic rule that says kill those who don’t pray or pay the Jizyah? If so, that would make Islam a forceful faith, wouldn’t it?
8th, I’m still wondering how you understood Samuel 15:3 says to defend myself! But anyways, I understand, but there is a difference b/w a person who defends and a person who attacks! But as I told you, in Surrah 9, its Mohammed who is the attacker.
And brother, as I told you, I neither support the aggression made by US to civilians nor by the Islamic terrorists! But for your info, you should realize that most who die are by Muslims themselves! Calculate the number of Iraqi and Afghani victims and see who killed them most! But yet, I strongly say that Bush was a fraud who led our nation to no where but misery. He’s not only killing you people, but killing our brothers who are fighting for falsehood and oil. We all know that the White House is oil and blood thirsty, and I apologize on behalf of them!
So bro, I do not see (yet again) anywhere where you have refuted anything!
Looking forward to your reply.
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
U used 4 messages but u circled around the same points so no new points were raised,,,,
The intolerance and persecution of the Pagan clique at Mecca caused untold hardships to the holy Messenger of Islam and his early disciples. They bore all with meekness and long-suffering patience until the holy one permitted them to take up arms in self-defence? (Yusuf Ali, Qur'an, Text, Translation and Commentary )
I don't know where u r getting all those points,
that's why i told u to answer my questions,because u said Abu Bakr(R.A) followed Muhammad(pbuh) then why did he not kill every pagan.jew and Christian??why r they still 40 million Coptic Christians??
That's why u r avoiding to answer!!!
God's Apostle said, "Five are regarded as martyrs: They are those who die because of plague, abdominal disease, drowning or a falling building etc., and the martyrs in God's Cause." -Bukhari #2829 (Volume 4, Book 52, #82) "Whoever dies protecting his religion, he is a martyr; whoever dies protecting his wealth, he is a martyr; whoever dies protecting his family, he is a martyr; and whoever dies protecting his blood (i.e. his life), he is a martyr." - (At-Tirmidhi #1421, Abu Dawud 4772, An-Nasa'i #4100 and Ibn Majah #2580)
Why isn't there any mention"Who kills a pagan where he sees him,is a martyr"???
Secondly, who said the verses got abrogated??
The burden of proof is on u not me,
In the next message, i will make it clearer
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
lets look at the commentary of the Hadith u mentioned:
It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant.? (Majmu` al-Fatawa 19/20)
Lets take a look at some Hadiths:
"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)
"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgment." (Bukhari)
As i told u a million times, They were the aggressors,they killed and tortured people before the migration of Makkah,and when they broke the treaty,they were given 2 choices,either surrender or fight...
U say we don't have any proofs that Pagans ever broke the treaty...
That's funny,,if u think otherwise,then show me the proof
9:10. In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/quran/00902.htm
Don't play games here,,
i can't publish every single verse so i gave the link
Makkah was the home of Prophet and his companions,they went to get it back,
"But in conclusion, the context of the verse is not in any battle. As I said this Surrah was issued when Muhammad had already conquered Mecca. "
this is complete lack of knowledge from your side
Continued....
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
Surah Tawbah was revealed in 3 parts
The first discourse (vv. 1-37), was revealed in Zil-Qa'adah A. H. 9
The second discourse (vv., 38-72) was sent down in Rajab A. H. 9
The third discourse (vv. 73-I 29) was revealed on his return from the Campaign of Tabuk.
So the verse 1-37 were revealed before the conquest of Makkah,
When Islam spread,The pagans of Makkah felt desperate and that was when the treaty was broken
It is decisively clear that the war was against certain people who failed Muslims’ treaties and aided others against them. Are we to be blamed for fighting such people?
He who is not merciful to others, will not be treated mercifully. (Muslim, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 42)
U r circling along and i am bringing new things and refuting u in every single way!!!
U said:
"In this speech (Bara'at) he told the pagans to convert to Islam or face death."
I have been waiting for a long time, please show me your proof,
Wasn't it Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) when he conquered Madina,He forgive every single non combatant??Even when some warriors did not fight,they were also not touched!!!
Brother,with due respect, u r making fun of yourself because when a Muslim reads our debate, he will know how u lacked Islamic knowledge.
and again i address the Hadith,do u know why Abu Bakr(R.A) fought??
Because 7 groups of Arabia claimed prophet hood and out of them only one returned to Islam,
Having fun here!!
"Salaam"
"Peace"
From: Christian
Subject: Re: Response
Message: Brother,
I really can’t understand how I couldn’t make a new point when I explained not only verse1-6, but beyond 13 also (since you mentioned it!).
I explained the whole thing in a more detailed manner, and yet, I got a response that I made no change! Strange!
Now to go to your question! I swear brother, that’s why I told you what question you are asking! I NEVER meant to avoid it! And to answer you, I believe I have already answered it clearly before! I do know Christians and Jews were not victims (Bro, this is the 4th time!). It was the PAGANS! Abu Bakr was following Mohammed’s words where he quoted he’ll fight till the Pagans say the Shahada!
Bro, I mentioned severally to you that this is not a matter of Christians vs. Muslims!
The pagans, as I mentioned before, were given the choice of life or death by the hands of Muslims!
About that commentary, well yes, that commentary will explain it that way! But logically, look at it yourself! They are Mohammed’s own words! And again, at first, you gave me a different explanation, now its an another explanation that it refers to at the time of war!
You first said that he said this becoz he knew people will attack him and his people once they knew of his prophet hood, and now, that commentary itself disputes you, and say thats referred to at war! Btw, is there anywhere that says that it refers to war or for self-defence?
----continued---
From: Christian
Subject: Re: 2nd Response
Message: If there is a bible verse that says without specifying “kill every non-Christian you find here and there”, and I BY MYSLEF, I say “it refers to war” without proof from those the very text, does that make sense?
But bro, let us finish first the debate on Surrah Tawbah, and then we can move on to that Hadith, as it is getting deeply mixed up b/w the main subject! I brought it to show you that it was a footnote to that, but apparently, we made it an extra subject, lol!
About the hadith you showed me, yes, I agree, there are also better words from Mohammed! But that is a different thing! For example, in the OT, God punished Jews severely for their rebellion! In the NT, they are forgiven! Now am I to justify OT’s claims by quoting NT? That would also make nonsense!
And bro, Mohammed was persecuted after he started to preach Islam in Mecca! That is a very obvious thing! What will happen if I go now to Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan and start to preach Christianity? Hell will brake lose!! I do not blame Mohammed here! But he did not go back from start to regain his ‘lost and taken’ land! Mecca was originally for PAGANS!
The thing is a complete different stage! You said it yourself, its either a surrender or die situation! The problem is, MUSLIMS WERE IN PEACE TREATY THEN! Its the Muslims who broke it!
You agreed that you don’t have proof that it’s the Pagans who broke the Treaty and you said the same way I don’t have!
---continued---
From: Christian
Subject: Re: 3rd Response
Message: Brother, let me remind you that does not validate your argument! You’re saying “Even if I’m wrong, show me that you’re right!”. You have to prove that YOU are right, thats the thing about a debate! And for your info brother, yes, I have clear proof that its Mohammed who started the aggression!
Let us see the background. Two years earlier, Muhammad with 1500 men decided to get into Mecca for pilgrimage. Meccans did not like the idea and did not trust him. Muhammad stationed his men at Hudaibiya and negotiations began. At the end they agreed that Muhammad and his men should retreat. They were also supposed to refrain raiding the caravans of the Meccans. Also if any youth escaped to Medina and wanted to join his army, and the parents of these youths did not agree with that, he was obliged to return them to the Meccans. In exchange if all the terms of the treaty were observed by the Muhammad and his men, they could come back the next year, without arms, and perform the prayers. Meanwhile the Meccans would go out of the city, leaving the town to them so there won’t be any clashed.
Now this is incomprehensible to us. But Mecca was a sacred place for the Arabs and even though they were enemies, they would not fight within the precincts of that town and the Meccans never prohibited anyone to come there. In fact all the tribes of Arabia had their patron idol housed in Kaaba – 360 of them.
PS: This mails will probably exceed 5 no., as you requested PROOF!
continued----
From: Christian
Subject: Re: 4th Response
Message: The terms of the treaty was not in favor of the Muslims. In fact Omar was so angry that he started doubting Muhammad. Abu Bakr convinced him to stay.
Muhammad sensed the general malaise and decided to bring some victory for his followers and give them some booty so they become content. He sacrificed his camels in Hudaibiyya and his disgruntled followers did the same. Then he told them to march northwards and instead of entering Medina he bypassed that city and fell on Khaibar. The fortress of Khaibar was taken by surprise. People there were not prepared at all. They were unarmed and had gone out of their homes to attend their daily business.
Narrated 'Abdul 'Aziz:
Anas said, 'When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there yearly in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet . He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, 'Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.' He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, 'Muhammad (has come).' (Some of our companions added, "With his army.") We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. (Sahih Bukhari 1.367)
From: Christian
Subject: Re: 5th Response
Message: This is the 5th response, I hope u understand as I have no other option in providing 'proof'.
Two years after he signed the treaty with the Meccans he was strong enough to break that treaty. He allied himself with a bunch of other Arabs who thought if they join him, they would be spared from his aggressions. So they accompanied him and stationed themselves on the hills around the Mecca. Muhammad threatened the Meccans to surrender or face death. The city capitulated because the Quraish saw that Muhammad is accompanied by 10,000 men. There was also some treachery and machination on the part of Abbas the uncle of Muhammad. So it was Muhammad who broke his treaty and not the pagans and the Quran confirms this.
Surah 9 is the last sura that Muhammad wrote. The first part of it is the text of a speech that Ali read on behalf of Muhammad during the pilgrimage after Mecca had fallen to the Muslims. Muhammad was sick and dying so he did not come. Ali read this message to all the presents, Muslims and pagans, who were there performing their hajj. This was the last time pagans performed pilgrimage there. In this speech (Bara'at) he told the pagans to convert to Islam or face death. He gave them four months of grace or immunity to go to their homes and after that they would be fair game for the Muslims. After these four months, they had to accept Islam and pay the tithes or they would be hunted wherever they are found and put to death. (Quran 9:5)
site proof next-----
From: Christian
Subject: Re: 6th Response
Message: And for the requested proof, pls refer to this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/897487/Personal-Narrative-of-a-Pilgrimage-to-AlMadinah-Meccah-by-Sir-Richard-Francis-Burton
As for breaking his oaths, Muhammad had never shown any scruples. He broke his oaths any time it suited him. To justify his acts he claimed that others would break their oaths and hence it is okay of he did it preemptively.
“They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah). 8.56
If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.” 8.58
Pay close attention to the wording. If you fear treachery, throw back their covenant to them. In other words be treacherous if you "fear" others would be treacherous to you. This allowed Muhammad to treacherously break his treaties anytime he desired by just claiming that he feared treachery.
In this Sura Muhammad said that if one among the pagans asks for asylum it should be granted so he can convert to Islam. Therefore victims of Islam cannot ask for asylum and live their lives freely. They should only be given asylum provided they convert to Islam; in other words surrender and submit to the Muslims.
----continued----
From: Christian
Subject: Re: 7th Response
Message: You must keep in mind that Muslims were the aggressors. So it makes no sense to say let your victims go and accompany them to safety if they stop defending themselves. If that was the meaning of this verse as Muslim apologists want us to believe, why attack in the first place?
And btw bro, I did not play any games here! I’m validating my argument! You’re trying to justify verse 5 by jumping to quote verse 10! I explained it to you earlier all from verse 1 and beyond verse 13! I also requested you to read it till 29 to get the whole point!
I don’t see any of my lack of knowledge in here! I hope I have provided you what is required.
Please forgive me for exceeding the maximum no. of mails allowed. But this is for ure sake as you requested for the proof of the backgroud.
so pls understand that this was a 'special case', and I was forced to exceed the limit.
Thanks and waiting for your response!
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
first of all,
you break the rules and tell that my Prophet did that??
You used 6 messages and you are replying to my points after 15 days!!
Allah-Hu-Akbar!!
This is the 2nd last "response" from me because i no longer want to debate with those who break the rules they make,
and yours will be the last,since you started it,so i have to finish it,
lets start:-
There was bad blood between the two tribes, a pre-Islamic blood grudge. Banu Bakar seized on this opportunity and attacked the Khuza`ah without any provocation, while Quraysh, in violation of the treaty, secretly gave their allies all the help they asked for, men and supplies.
Khuza`ah had no choice but to inform the Messenger, their ally, that Banu Bakar and their allies Quraysh had unilaterally broken the treaty of Hudaybiyah by attacking them. The Messenger promised them, "I will prevent from you what I will prevent from myself." (Ibn Hishaam)
The Quraish realized they had broken the treaty with the Messenger by attacking the Muslims' allies.Realizing the gravity of the situation, they dispatched Abu Sufyan to Madinah on a mission of fence - mending and to beg for mercy and apologize for their misdeed.
secondly,
Khaibar was a fort of Jews,not Pagans,
I think your most point have Al-Hamd-U-Lil-Lah benn refuted in my past messages and when you ran out of arguments,
you started being repetitive
As i have shown,
they broke the treaty,
then Muslims fought for Makkah
Continued----
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
Lets continue with Abu Sufyan knowing he had broken the treaty and went for Madinah for apologize:
His request was met with total rejection as he attempted to enlist the help of Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Ali respectively. As the gates closed in his face, he returned to `Ali for advice. `Ali said he knew no measure that would correct the explosive situation.
Finally, Abu Sufyan returned to Makkah totally disheartened because he knew the future was bleak. When he arrived in Makkah, the Quraysh gathered around to find out the result of his mission. "Totally unsuccessful," he told them. He narrated how his efforts with the Messenger, Abu Bakr and `Umar and `Ali were met with total rejection.
So as we now know that Makkans themselves knew they had broken the treaty,
I am wasting my time as i have already proven to you but will use 4 messages and will not break "our" rules as you have
9:4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
So as we can see that those Pagans who did not break the treaty,
they were commanded to fulfill the time of peace treaty
9:5. BUT WHEN THE FORBIDDEN MONTHS ARE PAST, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them
so we can see that these commandments were only for those...
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
9:7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? AS LONG AS THEY STAND TRUE TO YOU, STAND YE TRUE TO THEM: for Allah doth love the righteous.
My Great God,
How beautifully are we commanded to stand true to those who stand true to us
http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/quran/00902.htm
9:12. BUT IF THEY VIOLATE THEIR OATHS AFTER THEIR COVENANT, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.
so now we see who are we to fight
9:13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, AND TOOK THE AGGRESSIVE BY BEING THE FIRST (TO ASSAULT) YOU? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
you said to show me the verses of the Bible:-
Matthew 15:3
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
Secondly,
when you come back for your last "response",i want you to at least touch the questions i raised:-
which will be presented in the next message
thirdly,
If Iran has a peace treaty with America and then Iran plots to attack America and they find out through the spies so you are telling me that America can't break the treaty???
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
1.Why r Christians alive in Arabia??
2.Why r there 80% Non Muslims in India??
3.Why r Christians & Jews ordered to pay Jizya??Aren't we commanded to kill them???
4.Did u wake this morning knowing that there r 1500 million people in this world who want to kill u??
5.Why did Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) not kill the pagans where ever he saw them and Rasulullah (pbuh) asked them: 'What do you expect at my hands?'. The voices of their hearts rang out: 'Kindness and pity, gracious brother, gracious nephew'. They were not disappointed. Rasulullah (pbuh) used the noble words of Hazrat Yusuf A.S. When he addressed his brothers: 'Have no fear this day, May Allah forgive you, and He is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy'.???
"At Makkah when Muslims won it"
You could not even touch those points because you knew that if you even touched them,
You will get defeated,well even if u didn't,
You could not bring points interesting enough,
Let us look at Noble Verse 23:96 "Repel evil with that which is best: We are Well-acquainted with the things they say."
Let us look at Noble Verse 28:54 "Twice will they be given their reward, for that they have persevered, that they avert evil with good, and that they spend (in charity) out of what We have given them."
You see how My Creator taught me??
Now let me remind you the next time you will respond will be the last time of the debate,
You violated the rules and could not respond for more than 15 days!
From: Christian
Subject: Re: What an unfortunate ending!!
Message: I'm really sad at your response brother. You've accused me of countless things which I never thought or did. Accused of many things before, now, you're accusing me of intentionally postponding the debate.
For your correction, I left the debate for 11 days not 15, second it was 7 responses not 6!!!
And brother, it is very unfortunate of you to be misunderstanding and this way. I will not accuse u of anything and I respect you - but what you're doing is really wrong.
For that question. This will be the 5th time answering you. I clearly KNOW that Muslims will not kill Christians. We are talking about Pagans vs. Muslims at that time, NOT muslims vs. Christians/Jews or Muslims vs. generally all Pagans! I dont believe Muslims are ordered to kill us. So pls, I already answered this in almost every response! U said I knew if I tuched them, I'll get defeated...false assumptions and accusations just make me extremely sad, bro. But may the Good Lord forgive you.
I did not leave for 11 (or your 15) days just for fun! I work to live bro, debates are just past-time and it shouldn't be like the way u make it sound! And for the 'rules' yes, I admit violating them, but you asked me for proof. How else am I supposed to give you? And yet, you considered them just blank and accused me falsely of repeating my words!
You refused email debate, and I told u from the beginning that I knew this thing will coz us a problem.
----continuation----
From: Christian
Subject: Re: 2nd
Message: So bro, I admit being mistaken here, but this gives u no reason to be like this and withdraw in an unfortunate way. I told u from the beginning this was a special case. If you want me to send you incomplete words, thats different thing!
Anyways, although I have a lot to say and respond, I will respect your desicion.
But to tell you, the way of you respond, was realy saddening! I apologize if I stirred anger or something, but I dont believe I have offended you of a thing.
I believe your prophet rightly said in the hadith of such acts: "when he quarrels he abuses" for hypocrites.
I am not saying you are a hypocrite, but what you do is an act of hypocrites my brother, so pls refrain from them in the future.
I swear, it was really a pleasure and honor to debate you and I really enjoyed it, except that it ended the way it was not meant to be.
Stay safe and take care always brother, and I hope you wont forget me! :)
Farewell
In Christ
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
In the middle of debates,
I kept apologizing to you or being aggressive(which i was never!!) and here you are calling me hypocrite...
If i had broken the rules,i would have accepted the same thing i did....
This is why we have RULES!!!
Secondly,
Do you know my condition??
I can barely open my eye due to my sickness,and it is getting worse,
but here I am keeping my word and following the example of my Prophet,
Did you know that Muslims of my country spend 3 days in mosque just to pray and discuss Islam,millions of people show up,
I was looking for a very long time to go but i did not,
Why??
Because i was debating you,here i am following the example of My Prophet and I am being called as a Hypocrite because i follow rules.....
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr: "The Prophet said, "Whoever has the following four (characteristics) will be a pure hypocrite and whoever has one of the following four characteristics will have one characteristic of hypocrisy unless and until he gives it up.
1. Whenever he is entrusted, he betrays.
2. Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie.
3. Whenever he makes a covenant, he proves treacherous.
4. Whenever he quarrels, he behaves in a very imprudent, evil and insulting manner." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 33)"
Do i have any of these qualities??
You kept abusing my Prophet but did i abuse any sacred personality of Christianity??
Certainly Not!!!
Continued....
"Assalam-0-Alikum"
"Peace Be Upon You"
As i said,
this was the most interesting debate i ever had,
but i don't want us to fight and never talk again,
If i have any doubts about Christianity I will surely contact you,
Muslims are not killers,they are getting killed as we speak,
Quick comment on George.W.Bush, as u said u don't like that guy,
Truly,
We don't hate him,
We hate his master,
He was just a servant and i can bet u a million dollars that the next president will be worse than him,at least for us....
American Christians are servants of federal reserve,
And i never understood that in Islam,
We believe that Anti-Christ will come and make the world his servant,
i never understood that until we studied the purpose of Federal Reserve,
We are together in this war...
Your people are dying and our people are dying and Muslims are not to blame for this,
Nor Christians,
Do u realize why u hate us more than u did before 9/11???
Do u realize how we have started to hate the west after 9/11??
We are getting close to "The End Of Times"
May Allah Help Us and Guide Us and Keep us Away From Dajjal(Anti-Christ)
The messages after this will not be a part of the debate either they come from me or u,
We are not here to win or lose,
At Least Not Me,
I am Here To Find the Truth...
By Allah!!I found the truth when i read Quran in Detail,
Again,
If you were hurt by my words i again apologize,
As I am not a Hypocrite as you claim,
May Allah Help Us and Guide Us To The Truth
Ameen
Conclusion
As the readers can see how the debate went and this is not one of those debates where there is a winner or loser but remember,
As Allah said on the Holy Quran:-
[017:081] And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."
I wish he had not violates the rules or else he would have seen more points from my side,
He avoided the questions i asked throughout the debate ,he answered a few of them but not satisfying answers
May Allah Guide Him
Recommended Sites
CONQUEST OF MAKKAH
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/fasting/tajuddin/fast_76.html
http://www.inter-islam.org/Seerah/TheConquestofMakkahL2P1.html
THE TREATY OF HUDAYBIYAH
http://www.inter-islam.org/Seerah/TheTreatyofHudaybiyahL2P1.html
Refutation Of The Hadith
Bukhari: God's Apostle said, I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, None has the right to be worshipped but God. (Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196) With regards to the narration, only part of it has been quoted, and the full text reads: And the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "I have been ordered to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship other than Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer, and pay zakat, and if they do this, then their blood and money shall be protected from me, except by an Islamic right, and their account will be with Allah.
This narration lists some of the pillars of Islam that Muslims must adhere to. The fighting being ordained here refers to the enforcement of laws and regulations within an Islamic state. Just as modern governments enforce their legal policies, so to does the Islamic state. These legal policies refer to Muslims paying their Zakat (charity tax) and abiding by the laws in an Islamic state. Those who understood the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) the best, were his companions, and we can examine their application of the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to derive a better understanding. We find that after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), many hypocrites who had pretended to be Muslim began to turn away and leave their religious duties, one example was Zakat (the charity tax). They wanted to compromise the commands of God. It was then that Abu Bakr, the First Caliph and the Caliph of that time, cited this narration to make it clear that a compromise would not be tolerated and he would fight them until they agreed to follow Islam in full. The fighting that resulted was known as the Riddah wars. Similarly, we can see that today's governments would not tolerate it if a citizen refused to pay tax or abide by the laws of the country. If one lives in a state or country they must abide by the regulations to ensure a secure and healthy society. We should note that the 'people' referred to in this narration does not refer to all of humanity. As Shaykh Ahmed Ibn Taymiyyah says:
“It refers to fighting those who are waging war, whom Allah has permitted us to fight. It does not refer to those who have a covenant with us with whom Allah commands us to fulfill our covenant.” (Majmu` al-Fatawa 19/20) Clearly, this narration does not refer to imposing Islam upon non-Muslims, since the Qur'an explicitly states: 2:256There is no compulsion in religion...
Further Refutations Of The Hadiths:-
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_deception_of_craig_winn_revealed_
